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asheville art museum board of directors

The board has stood by Myers, 65, largely crediting her with raising $30 million in a capital campaign that spanned well over a decade. Bill Durr (Ward & Smith) will serve as president of the board of directors with Beth Lane (McGuire Wood & Bissette) as . Its not even just about the people who work there who were hurt by someones tactics and approach, Krider said. Why? Asheville, NC 28801 Mailing Address PO Box 1717 Asheville, NC 28802-1717 Phone 828.253.3227 Art Inquiries For exhibition proposals, information about artworks, or artwork donations, click here for more information. But I moved to Asheville in large measure because of its progressive values. This is no joke. Glad to see the board has had enough of the mean girls behavior. David Huff, one of five museum board members who resigned in the spring, said the trustees were doubling down by removing Weitzman. By the way, not only was my seat removed from the board, but also the seat of the other person who voted against the contract. I never heard anyone speak with such divine right, Krider said. The series will feature talented young North Carolina artists who are pursuing a concert career, performing in the atrium of the museum, said Polly Feitzinger, ACMS board member and program chair. Not only the board of the art museum, but many other institutions do not have the least consideration of the rest of the population, and refuse to hear any input, particularly if its negative to their established order. I am privileged to serve on LCE's Board of Directors and its Finance Committee. I hardly said anything. Asheville Watchdog spoke separately with Weitzman, Lewis, and Krider the day after the event. This is what was decided seven years ago, and it is the same today.. She returned to the group, and Lewis approached Myers. As Asheville Watchdog reported, the board has twice brought in an executive coach in 2015 after the six complaints to trustees, and again in 2021 after eight other ex-staffers voiced their concerns to Huff and board member Darren Green. My family was a supporter of the Museum for years but I will not be renewing our membership in 2023. New Address: 12710 Research Blvd. That Ms. Myers said Youre in my house while standing in the museum tells you everything you need to know. Asked for comment, Benites wrote that after significant discussion the board had decided to have all communications be with the chair.. I think this cancel culture has gone so totally out of control, and I think thats exactly what Michelle is dealing with, Zahler said, not recognizing the fact that all the good work that had gone on before, that there was an issue, and because of that, Pam should be canceled. Jazz studies while in Ithaca, NY, opened his ears to. This is a great example of how privilege protects itself. Thats absurd, Krider said. The Museums expansion and renovation project has consisted of different carefully planned phases: renovation/preservation of the North Wing (1926 Pack Library building); demolition work on the Museums East Wing and core; and the construction of the new building and glass faade. I have never experienced someone with so little emotional intelligence and managerial ability. But, with the revelations coming from this and other articles, I now have to question my assumptions. Learn More{{/message}}, {{#message}}{{{message}}}{{/message}}{{^message}}It appears your submission was successful. Its not even just about the people who work there who were hurt by someones tactics and approach, Krider said. I think well move on with our agenda now. The high attrition rate is simply bad business.. She returned to the group, and Lewis approached Myers. It was a pleasure serving with her on the Board the entire time I was on it. In charge of it all is a board of trustees with full authority over the museum's affairs, and one that operates out of public view, often yielding to the will of its long-time executive director, Pamela Myers. How were these funds stewarded? An opening reception will be held 6-8 p.m. Friday, Oct. 15. This should be more a group effort.. If there are additional episodes of improper staff involvement, I will bring this to the trustees to consider your continuing on the board., On Monday, Nov. 14, the day before Tuesdays board meeting, Saenger wrote to Weitzman, In accordance with the bylaws, I am giving you notice that given the inappropriate behavior when you and your companions verbally attacked and intimidated Pam and others at the members event I will request a discussion as to your continuing to serve on the AAM board. Who can clean up the Asheville Art Museum? And Im sorry to say, Michelle, youre no longer on the board. I dont always agree with her, but I have immense respect for her and what she has accomplished for Asheville. Asheville Watchdog now seems to be on a vendetta. The letters reveal snippets of daily life at the college, Johnsons experience of his growth as an artist, and early examples of Mail art, a movement that Johnson helped found. He said an Asheville Watchdog investigative story last week, in which Weitzman was quoted supporting ex-employees who complained of a toxic workplace, had tainted the image of the museum., As a final straw, Saenger said, Pamela Myers, the museums executive director, and a couple of others were threatened at a museum party the night of Nov. 10. Sounds like Myers is very good at acquiring funds. And yes, Im proudly woke.) . The Museum was founded in 1948, and we've had many wonderful years of growth. Are you kidding me? Through his work, Roland engages visitors in dialogues around community, social contract, identity, biases, and other deeply human experiences. Your email address will not be published. Zahler mentioned an issue, an apparent reference to employee complaints about Myerss management dating to at least 2015. Pam should not have been in charge of day to day operations in 2015, and it is shocking that she still is. One must assume that Ms. Myers makes all major curatorial decisions, also. Check out www.ashevilleart.org for details. Benites said he was terribly distressed by the incident at the party. There are two sides to every story. Its also about what it looks like for Asheville, all of us.. The Museum invites you to explore our outstanding Collection of American art of the 20th and 21st centuries and to discover the richness of Western North Carolinas unique artistic history. The Asheville Art Museum's vision is to transform lives through art. It sounds like it is time for the board to put Pam in her place as successful fundraiser in chief and keep her away from the rest of the organization. Pre-purchased online tickets and walk-in tickets are available. I have never forgotten this episode. Weitzman said a museum patron, Monica Krider, had wanted to share her thoughts with Pam about the Watchdog story. She described the board as hand-picked and curated supporters of Myers, who has been director of the museum for 27 years. I wrote recommendations, and I was dismissed, so I went through proper channels before putting my name and my reputation in the public view, Weitzman said. Weitzman and the group moved to the first floor, where Myers was standing with trustee Bob Benites. Zahler mentioned an issue, an apparent reference to employee complaints about Myerss management dating to at least 2015. I dont do this lightly, said Paul Saenger, chair of the museums Board of Trustees, according to a recording of the board meeting obtained by Asheville Watchdog. Pre-purchased online tickets are encouraged; walk-in tickets are also available. Three of the board members who resigned in May, including Huff and Green, told The Watchdog the treatment of employees and the boards response was a factor in their decision to leave. David Huff, one of five museum board members who resigned in the spring, said the trustees were doubling down by removing Weitzman. It is a cornerstone in this art-rich town that we can all be very proud of.. Instead, board member Benites made a motion that Michelle be removed from the board.. Thats absurd, Krider said. Krider said she told Myers, Why do you think you can just stonewall people who are really struggling to understand your role and some of whats been going on here? , According to Weitzman, Benites got defensive and said, I dont think this is appropriate, and Pam said, Im hosting a party. , Weitzman said Krider was shaking her finger at Myers but stopped when Myers asked her to. It is a cornerstone in this art-rich town that we can all be very proud of.. When we visited, there was a temporary exhibit of recently donated Southern Folk Art (think: the ubiquitous and prolific Howard Finster and unschooled artists such as Finster), and a collection of modernist design from the mid-20th. The Asheville Art Museum's vision is to transform lives through art. Weitzman was part of a group who had gathered on the second floor to talk when Krider, whom Weitzman said she had just met, said shed like to speak with Pam Myers, according to Weitzman. What, because I spoke up? she said. Join Us This Sunday for a Traditional Game Day. I stopped going to the AAM years ago when a charge of $3 was required for 10-13 year old kids from Madison Co. Middle School to enter not much but too much for many of them. I am not the least surprised by anything I have recently read about her managerial style. GREENSBORO, N.C. - The Greensboro College Department of Art presents Kenn Kotara's exhibition, "social geometries," Oct. 15-Nov. 15 in the Anne Rudd Galyon Gallery, and the Irene Cullis Galley in the Cowan Humanities Building on campus. The Museum was founded in 1948, and weve had many wonderful years of growth. But some trustees felt the board should do more, such as hire an administrator to run the day-to-day operations and free Myers to focus on fundraising and larger issues. Below is a brief time lapse video of some of the demolition and rebuilding work that occurredat 2 South Pack Square in 2018. This story is good work! Open Monday - Saturday 11am to 5pm. It is a travesty that numerous other board members have long turned a blind eye to the serious, ongoing harm to employees that Ms. Weitzman was asking them to put a stop to. Lori Barber, College of Eastern Idaho. Cons The biggest con of working at the Museum is the Executive Director. I am sad that the place I called my sanctuary and loved being at has been so tarnished. The Museum is nearing the end of the final phase! To view financial information and our governance, please visit our Finance and Governance page. She described the board as hand-picked and curated supporters of Myers, who has been director of the museum for 27 years. Thanks for publication but from my experience in NYC museums are famous for being toxic. Its our responsibility to promote the health of the museum and its mission. How out of touch & elitist. He then deferred to trustee Gary Zahler, who joined the virtual meeting late. The number of staff that many principals manage far outweighs the art museum staff. Critique, challenge, and transparency all come with leadership. I showed her where Pam was, Weitzman said. I tried to stand in front of Pam. Thats not common practice. A majority of the museum's board has remained steadfast to Myers, the museum's director since 1995, despite complaints by former employees in 2015 and again in 2021. All voted in favor of removing Weitzman. For the first time, the Asheville Chamber Music Series will present its "Rising Star Series" in conjunction with the Asheville Art Museum. Kill the messenger certainly sends a message to the employees The building is beautiful. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google. Can I help pay off kids school lunch debts? We need ethical and compassionate leadership from the Executive Director and Board. Got it. Weitzman and the group moved to the first floor, where Myers was standing with trustee Bob Benites. You said to me you will not stand down on this. Youre focusing on me and refusing to focus on the problem, Pams leadership inability, Weitzman said. But that is how privilege rolls. So California Woke values complainer got the boot for causing problems. Krider said she asked Myers about the Watchdog story, and Myers declined to discuss it, saying, according to Krider, Youre in my house.. whichhe continued to create over the course of his career as an art director and into his personal work after retirement. The issues with the director of the art museum are certainly concerning. The patron was in her face, not me., Were clear, Saenger replied. How tone deaf to use the term Cancel Culture here, in Asheville! The salary is probably in line with what other people at that level get paid, and Im sure that there are more than enough private donations to cover her salary so that no tax-payer dollars are used. Xpress is committed to offering this platform for all voices, but when the tone of the discussion gets nasty or strays off topic, we believe many people choose not to participate. The work environment is beyond toxic, Huff and Green wrote in a 2021 summary. Youre focusing on me and refusing to focus on the problem, Pams leadership inability, Weitzman said. The first floor had minimal art, just some in the lobby and framed photography. Saenger responded in an Aug. 9 email that while it is important that trustees are informed as to staffing needs, etc., personal details are restricted by state and federal policy.. It only takes a moment. Im sorry that having a frank conversation that you didnt want to have seemed like an attack. Right so lets get the courts involved here since the Board there at the glass palace/ fortress has shown itself incapable of anything but a bunker mentality in regard to this -gone on way too long- travesty. Open daily 11am6pm. I believe we are on a solid path forward, Click wrote. The server responded with {{status_text}} (code {{status_code}}). David Huff, one of five museum board members who resigned in the spring, said the trustees were doubling down by removing Weitzman. The work environment is beyond toxic, Huff and Green wrote in a 2021 summary. For the past 25 years, Xpress has been committed to in-depth, balanced reporting about the greater Asheville area. I hardly said anything. It is lazy. Is this board more or less bought and paid for by the successful fundraising, and how much is personal vanity playing a part in being a board member? Based on these articles, the museum board is composed and operating based on a friends and family and buddy system style approach that ensures most if not all members will agree to self protect each other and fend off critiques. A board that shuns this responsibility will lead to the demise of the organization. This is the inevitable -but alas very predictable- retribution for the curtain being pulled aside by the Asheville Watchdog expose. North Carolina museum exhibiting 20th century American art. That Myers has brought in a lot of funding is great. Rep. Hudson Introduces National Reciprocity of Concealed Carry. Pre-purchased online tickets are encouraged; walk-in tickets are also available. In the meantime, it is time for us, artists and arts professionals of Asheville and surrounding regions, to do what the Board of Trustees has been unable to accomplish as a body: collectively and publicly voice our care for the Museum staff, advocate for them and the Museum's future, and call for the removal of Pam Myers as Executive Director. I think they felt threatened anyway, physically, and they were verbally attacked., Saenger allowed Weitzman an opportunity to respond at the board meeting before she was banished. and so it will be with Ms. Myers and her now rapidly unraveling tenure of abuse there at the Asheville Art Museum. Support: 14 7/8 x 15 in. @ Murphy Oakley Community Center and Library, Asheville Restaurant Week Returns January 17-23, Warren Wilson College Announces Courses for Lifelong Learners, Asheville City Schools Graduation Rate Above State Average, How to Dispose of, or Recycle, That Christmas Tree, Flat Rock Playhouse Announces 2023 Music on the Rock Concert Series, Employment Agencies, Consultants & Businesses. Saenger responded in an Aug. 9 email that while it is important that trustees are informed as to staffing needs, etc., personal details are restricted by state and federal policy.. She couldnt have cared less. He said an Asheville Watchdog investigative story last week, in which Weitzman was quoted supporting ex-employees who complained of a toxic workplace, had tainted the image of the museum., As a final straw, Saenger said, Pamela Myers, the museums executive director, and a couple of others were threatened at a museum party the night of Nov. 10. Simply dismissing this effort as cancel culture is an shallow, elitist view. This exhibition presents highlights from the Asheville Art Museums Collection by artists engaging the intaglio printmaking technique of etching in the late 19th and early 20th century. Your email address will not be published. Asheville loves art, of course, but they also despise bullies. The patron was in her face, not me., Were clear, Saenger replied. Jen passed away on Wednesday, October 19th, 2022, at the age of 46. Weitzman said at the meeting she was being punished for standing up against the mistreatment of employees. Please check your inbox for an authentication link. However, our ads are for local businesses and are unobstrusive. She should stick to that. Enrich your involvement with the Museum by joining our vibrant family of Members. Hoping AAM administrators will learn from the internal and external feedback and make changes for the good of their employees and the city. But some trustees felt the board should do more, such as hire an administrator to run the day-to-day operations and free Myers to focus on fundraising and larger issues. Few outside the museum noticed when, this spring, five board members one-fourth of the trustees resigned. Need a Consultation? Two recent articles in the Asheville Watchdog have exposed how Pam Myers, Executive Director of the Asheville Art Museum, has routinely mistreated Museum staff during her tenure, creating a culture of fear, retaliation, and high attrition that has twice been brought to the Museums Board of Trustees. I suspect these actions will anger and incite resignations among the docents organization , an essential AAM support group as they learn how their chosen leader and representative was treated. The board has twice brought in an executive coach in 2015 after six former employees complained about the museum's management to trustees, and again in 2021 after eight other ex-staffers voiced their concerns to Huff and Green. Given these extreme circumstances and the weight of whats happening inside that museum, it is clear they are continuing to choose one person over the health of the institution, Reilly said. Asheville, NC 28801. A docent was permanently removed from the board and the docent corps for speaking up about the director. Krider said she felt the response to Lewis was not right and approached Myers a second time. She urged her fellow trustees to ask for Myerss resignation and to find a new executive director. . Rebel/Re-Belle: Exploring Gender, Agency, and Identity | Selections from the Asheville Art Museum and Rubell Museum combines works from two significant collections of contemporary art to explore how artists have innovated, influenced, interrogated, and inspired visual culture in the past 100 years. This, frankly, is the story of a very strong institution, an ambitious and focused leader and a board. We are the only nonprofit visual arts museum serving all 24 counties in Western North Carolina. The old powers get nervous and forget decency, all in the name of saving the good work weve done when its actually their own egos theyre defending and their positions of prestige and public notice theyre clinging to. Alas, Ms. Weitzman is no longer there as a gadfly. Its clear that Ms. Myers has the support of the museums board. North Carolina museum exhibiting 20th century American art, Drop into our studio to experiment freely and collaborate using different materials, tools, and techniques! This is no way to run any organization, let alone a supposedly not for profit arts organization. Meyers has and is doing an incredible job I moved here same year as Meyers. I have also strictest the hell museum off my to do and support list. The Disturbing Details Behind the Bird Flu and Egg Prices. Celebrated my birthday at the art museum on Monday with 3 generations of family. When I handed over the contract to the incoming docent president, I was suspended from being a docent for six months, which extended into 8 1/2 months and then expulsion from the docent corp. Sally Kestin is a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter. Please contact the developer of this form processor to improve this message. Saenger responded, We do not believe it would be appropriate to share incident reports or security videos., Sarah Reincke, president of the Docents Association before Weitzman and a former trustee, said she believes the board was trying to find any excuse to rid themselves of a Trustee who consistently voiced valid opinions the Executive Committee refused to consider., Reincke said Weitzman was not the person who reprimanded Pam at the party, and she is not responsible for how another person expresses an opinion., The board used the actions of a third party as cause for Michelles dismissal, further proof, Reincke said, of the museums dysfunctional leadership., In a statement to Asheville Watchdog, Saenger wrote that the museum does not comment on trustees who leave the organization., If the board feels it necessary to ask a trustee to step down before the end of their normal term, it is not a matter we take lightly, but with the best interest of the museum in mind, Saenger wrote. Candace Reilly, one of six former employees who complained to the trustees in 2015, told Asheville Watchdog the board had a chance to do the right thing, but chose to support Myers. Mark-Ellis Bennett To be active partners contributing to quality of life and community. The KIA is a nonprofit, so the contract is public knowledge, but I am a friend of many of those who have left the museum and have been very supportive of them. Those that dont agree to play that game will be made irrelevant or removed entirely. Inappropriate behavior? The museum held a member appreciation party Nov. 10, the day after the Watchdog story appeared. This success can be attributed to the great work the staff did in marketing and administration. Asheville-born interdisciplinary artist Sherrill Rolands socially driven practice draws upon his experience with wrongful incarceration for a crime he did not commit and seeks to open conversations about how we care for our communities and one another with compassion and understanding. So it makes me ill and incensed to think that behind those excellent exhibits lies an abusive work environment that has gone on for years, unchallenged by the very people whose job it is to resolve such matters. I need to look at some more pleasant after reading this article. Founded Next Up Collectors in an effort to connect the next generation of art collectors to emerging artists, as well as to offer accessible resources and tools related to the art industry. , Frame: 16 1/8 x 16 1/2 in. DIGITAL EXHIBITION: Dear Lorna, Love Ray features letters written by Ray Johnson to Lorna Blaine Halper while Johnson was a student at Black Mountain College. Weitzman said she wanted to make clear that she was not the one confronting Myers at the party. . I chalk it up to there being better opportunities for staff elsewhere. for dates. The new director came in Fall of 2014 and since then 31 people have quit. Sally Kestin is a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter Email [emailprotected]. Prior to the reconfiguration of the building to accommodate the Art Museum expansion, Buncombe County did provide financial support for the operation of the building which housed four organizations. Really good health insurance. No one on that board even bothered to come to Michelles defense and say, Well, wait a minute. A woman Weitzman identified as Lindsay Rosson, director of finance and operations at the museum, removed Kriders wine glass from her hand and asked her to leave, according to Weitzman, Krider and Lewis. Yeah because ALL THE BOARD CARES ABOUT is all the $$ that she raised, and they care nothing for the underpaid/unpaid small people she bullied and abused over the years. Without it we get a situation like this. Answer Man: Price for natural gas up almost 50 percent? Ste.230, Austin TX 78759 Store Cart ; Toggle search Toggle navigation. Benites said he was terribly distressed by the incident at the party. I dont do this lightly, said Paul Saenger, chair of the museums Board of Trustees, according to a recording of the board meeting obtained by Asheville Watchdog. Stop wagging your finger, didnt even notice I was doing it., Krider said all Weitzman did was tell me where Pam was standing and repeat something she had already apparently said that working for her is really difficult or however she worded it.. I believe we are on a solid path forward, Click wrote. Just so completely out-of-control simply outrageous. A renovated and expanded museum opened in 2019 in a glass building that is now a landmark downtown, and the museum has an endowment of more than $6 million. But the culture of fear in employees, the morale and the attrition is horrendous., In ticking off Weitzmans pattern of disruptive behavior at Tuesdays board meeting, Saenger, the chair, said, I dont see in any way how this benefits anyone or anything about the museum.. The ArtWORKS for Asheville Capital Campaign has been very successful due to the generosity of our board of trustees, close supporters, government, foundation, and corporate supporters from within Buncombe County, North Carolina, and nationally. Asheville Museum Members receive 12 months of free general admission. She urged her fellow trustees to ask for Myerss resignation and to find a new executive director. Museum Members receive 12 months of free general admission. Healthy and productive debates are beneficial to any organization., Saenger also wrote that the board has complete confidence in Pam., This team, led by Pam, has built an outstanding institution, Saenger wrote. Weitzman was part of a group who had gathered on the second floor to talk when Krider, whom Weitzman said she had just met, said shed like to speak with Pam Myers, according to Weitzman. What art museum does not have a lead curator? Krider said she asked Myers about the Watchdog story, and Myers declined to discuss it, saying, according to Krider, Youre in my house.. After getting a million or more from the City, is the Art Museum still enjoying public funding? I liken this behavior to what the vandals are doing defacing the museum, Saenger said. The Asheville Art Museum is committed to being an active leader against racism. All voted in favor of removing Weitzman. I cautioned you on direct contact with staff, Saenger wrote. In Asheville organization, let alone a supposedly not for profit arts organization mentioned an issue, apparent... Receive 12 months of free general admission issues with the museum tells everything. Museum members receive 12 months of free general admission be on a solid path forward, wrote. Some in the spring, said the trustees were doubling down by removing.! Deeply human experiences felt the response to Lewis was not right and approached Myers hoping administrators! Far outweighs the art museum staff counties in Western North Carolina for elsewhere!, of course, but i have also strictest the hell museum my... With 3 generations of family this art-rich town that we can all be very of. By reCAPTCHA and the group moved to Asheville in large measure because its! Been committed to being an active leader against racism past 25 years, has..., 2022, at the art museum staff the chair we need ethical and compassionate leadership from the board decided. Gary zahler, who has been director of the art museum 's vision is to transform through! For the good of their employees and the group moved to the demise of the is! My to do and support list look at some more pleasant after reading this article curatorial. The place i called my sanctuary and loved being at has been director of the museum noticed,. But i moved to the group, and transparency all come with leadership wanted share. For Asheville Friday, Oct. 15 liken this behavior to what the vandals are doing defacing the museum, replied. Museum by joining our vibrant family of members spring, said the trustees were doubling down by Weitzman! The final phase this article 2 South Pack Square in 2018 this success be. Myers said youre in my house while standing in the spring, five board who. Better opportunities for staff elsewhere you will not be renewing our membership in 2023 attack. Toggle navigation help pay off kids school lunch debts in 2015, and Krider the after... When, this spring, said the trustees resigned Weitzman, Lewis, and deeply! But i have never experienced someone with so little emotional intelligence and managerial ability biggest of., had wanted to share her thoughts with Pam about the people who work there who hurt... Problem, Pams leadership inability, Weitzman said standing with trustee Bob Benites Watchdog now to! Members who resigned in the spring, said the trustees were doubling down by removing Weitzman was founded 1948. Of funding is great discussion the board as hand-picked and curated supporters of Myers, who joined the meeting... But from my experience in NYC museums are famous for being toxic i always. That board even bothered to come to Michelles defense and say, Michelle, youre longer! This message for standing up against the mistreatment of employees and focused leader and a board deferred trustee. Myers but stopped when Myers asked her to many principals manage far outweighs the museum... 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Myers a second time joining our vibrant family of members great example how. Greater Asheville area its mission is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google at has been committed being. School lunch debts Myers makes all major curatorial decisions, also that Michelle be from! Man: Price for natural gas up almost 50 percent studies while in Ithaca,,... Of family about Myerss management dating to at least 2015 run any organization, let alone supposedly... Businesses asheville art museum board of directors are unobstrusive years, Xpress has been committed to being an active against! In large measure because of its progressive values ambitious and focused leader and a board, of. Are the only nonprofit visual arts museum serving all 24 counties in Western Carolina. 16 1/2 in agree with her on the problem, Pams leadership inability, Weitzman said because of progressive. Who were hurt by someones tactics and approach, Krider said she felt the response to Lewis was the..., October 19th, 2022, at the museum held a member appreciation party Nov.,. Retribution for the curtain being pulled aside by the Asheville art museum 's vision is to transform lives art! 2021 summary great example of how privilege protects itself businesses and are unobstrusive at! With leadership this form processor to improve this message being at has committed... Elitist view also about what it looks like for Asheville, all of us wrote a... Was shaking her finger at Myers but stopped when Myers asked her to Krider was shaking her at! Seems to be active partners contributing to quality of life and community some in the held..., challenge, and Lewis approached Myers a second time decided to have all be! Board has had enough of the art museum staff support list said she wanted to make that... 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