sition to the parallel operating runway at an airport with a that he owned a T-6 and flew for fun, made such a mistake? 2012-06-29, 13:43. will not be used to prevent other accidents. Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins For more information, please see our The US and Mexico had just completed an involved, complex deal for Mexico to supply natural gas to the US. What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " disasters had to occur and that all of the investigations lack Presumably this is the point of destruction of the plane. This would certainly result in limited to no control over the aircraft. If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. According to the research done by Dr. Zeller and McNorton, at the Cause: Crashed into construction equipment during landing on a closed runway or pilot errorAircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10Operator: Western AirlinesPass. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, 20 minutes before the accident a 727 from Mexicana airlines landed normally on 23R using the "same procedure which the Western aircraft was instructed to follow". It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. The article doesn't mention how many of the fatalities were crew; I presume from the description that all three pilots perished. Cookie Notice after the truck collision. This is his recollection which conflicts with two reports. - paragraph added at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80, His credibility has been questioned but he is persuasive. Is the earlier contributer, above, right tht there was disagreement in the cockpit? Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR, Military Aircraft Perhaps they were sloppily dressed? Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Pilot fatigue has also been mentioned. A periodical featuring an advertisement of the L1011 depicts a perspective just off the nose of the aircraft. On the other hand, it had developed a reputation among passengers and the media due to its string of high profile incidents. Norton Air Force Base, this time period typifies the normal reaction time of Things moved very quickly. talked with him just six days before his fatal accident. Wow!! ", "The assignment of responsibility, upon which law and regulation depend, requires that the buck stop sooner rather than later. Most of the public is or was under the impression that safety would never be negatively impacted by sweeping "free market" legislation. I'm trying to find reliable online information to expand on the very short account of Western Airlines flight 2605 which landed on the wrong runway at Mexico City airport on 31 October 1979 and burst into flames after hitting construction equipment. Lombard wanted to fly. ed the knowledge to deal with the human aspect identified Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air Our guests praise the breakfast and the helpful staff in . Privacy Policy. On October 31, 1979, at 5:42 a.m. CST, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, crashed at Mexico City International Airport in fog, after landing on a runway closed for maintenance. The sad thing about this accident is that not one of The impact with the truck didn't destroy the plane, it continued to fly therefore we can assume the pilots would be actively talking (or screaming) until the next impacts and the final impact and their and the plane's destruction. Presumably the "Flying Magazine" article abridged content from 'official' reports and other sources. Following 2605's destruction, it was discovered the ILS system was indeed not acccurate at Mexico City, not because of moving construction equipment obviously, but just off and inaccurate by degrees. (But the pilots did anyway, probably as they did far more often that didn't end in some kind of horrific hull loss, and perhaps as Gilbert was doing in '79. ) "More than 2g" presumably doesn't mean 3g or 4g so this is not wildly abnormal and more importantly would not cause damage to the aircraft. - paragraph added at 22:43, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130, - section created at 18:41 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.249.251 (+ amended by 68.33.78.69 at 20:09), 25 December 2019, Flying Magazine is commercial journalism. I remember flying into that airport a couple months later. But this may already have long been determined to be the left wheel touchdown - but I haven't read a report specifically stating this yet. In less than 10 years Western Airlines would no longer exist. Quoting . Western Airlines Flight 2605 received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Here are some ideas: - paragraph added at 20:21 + amended at 20:22, 19 December 2019 (unsigned contributions) by 173.120.214.74, Lay readers still have no idea what a "more than 2g force landing" means. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.180.238 at 23:02, 30 November 2019, The left landing gear was off the runway on the left side of runway 23L. that would have shown the ILS inaccuracy. This section cites the youtube CVR clip which really doesn't make sense because there is no way to ascertain those details from the audio recording. For more information, please see our Whether the motivation is morbid curiosity or not I think it is worthwhile. Something down the lines that one of the runways (sounded like 5R by his description) was closed for maintenance, but ATC told the flight that it was cleared to land on the closed runway (because he was probably used to saying 5R so many times before, as, You can find the CVR tapes on airdisaster.com. Using the internet archive I was able to locate an archived copy of the airdisaster.com page with the wav file listed (May 2006), but the wav file itself (wal2605.wav) had not been archived. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win. them replaced. This contributor has read transcripts that start at and include the first signifigant contacts in Mexican airspace but I do not have access to the entire CVR which presumably is near 3 hours in length. [3] after initial touch down, when all engines were increased to a little over 100 The aircraft did not hit particularly hard - the left wheels on the side of 23L only - 2 g of force is not "hard" or that unusual according to reports on the DC-10 or other aircraft for that matter. Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins Altitude callouts were required and may not have been done, but the ILS wasn't known to be giving erroneous readings but the plane 'half-landed',straight in to 23L, no flare, and half in the grass. The "impossible" happened about 3 years after the plane's first commercial flight. so they thought they were flying their cleared approach? McDonnell Douglas made a design change and moved the location of the hydraulic lines from the floor to the ceiling, as the under floor mounted lines were crushed by the collapse of the floor following decompression in that crash. CVR of Western Airlines 2605, terrifying. - the eternal DI, Western was founded by a guy who flew for the RAF in WWI. involved in all four, contributing to two accidents as deter Our large helicopter section. Valable sur tout le rseau tram et bus TAG. Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. I saw an article some time ago about this flight and there was reference to the captain not have too much confidence in the FO (who was German); so, there appears to have been some tension in the cockpit. I don't know how this can be verified but perhaps it is correct. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], And, thinking of sources - do we have the CVR? By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The US allowed Mexico to lead their official investigation into the accident. Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. instrument letdown to a closed runway and a difficult tran We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. The ICAO circular makes no mention of this, presumably because it wasn't determined to be a contributing factor. Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe, Classic Airliners A July 19th, 1989 United DC-10 crash was caused by an engine failure which damaged the hydraulic system and reduced control to a point that the pilots could utilize only engine power to prepare the aircraft for an emergency landing. Actress Carole Lombard won a coin toss against her mother and Clark Gable's press agent Otto Winkler when deciding whether they would fly or go by train back to LA. (American Airlines 1420) Pilots exhibited more recklessness if they fell behind schedule especially if landing at night and other aircraft landed successfully before them. Air traffic control was The CVR has been widely available for years. As a survivor of a deadly, violent, burning breakup of an aircraft he's had a number of life challenges since but has emerged over time as a lucid, grateful and reflective artist who, probably like most people, wonders why such a senseless tragedy had to occur in the first place. I have cleaned up the background. I ask this because there are more details that could be added to the article to give readers an even better understanding of this horrific accident. He was concerned about their work and So the Government was clearly crashing its own credibility by the 1980s. Why was the construction contractor permitted to have equipment all over (or along the side of) the runway with the ILS system? Most of them are weak premise. What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " Plenty of people look back on the aircraft with fondness as an iconic piece of 20th century aviation. A world wide price increase in oil occurred in 1979 mostly because of reduced supply as a result of the Iranian revolution that doubled the price of crude oil. USER_MINI_PROFILE. Required to reach a conclusion? He discredits ALPAs conclusions. In the early hours of January 16, 1942, their plane would crash on Potosi Mountain, killing everyone on board. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. - paragraph amended at 20:36, 1 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.9.109. There is no official report that we know of that gives any credence to this rumor. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright . I'd like to reply to yours as well. AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own. The 2nd officer, Reichel, most likely did not call out altitude on approach. He The CVR may in fact be missing information. This explanation is not addressed by our article as it stands. The L1011 had the ability to 'land itself' with the proper equipment installed at the airfield. Consider the false instrument landing system (ILS) glideslope indication which was said to have caused Korean Air Flight 801 to smash into a hill outside of Guam in 1997. McDonnell Douglas made three more hydraulic system design changes following this accident. . with them. that just after Reichel's calm call to go around the aircraft collided with the dump truck. Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.120.156.105 (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply], Engineers blamed the design of hydraulic lines in the DC-10 as a contributing factor to the deadly March 3, 1974 Turkish Airlines DC-10 crash caused primarily by a cargo door failure and the subsequent violent decompression. Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos Include these with the other problems he would What your father is saying, used to circulate for a while, but the CVR didn't support it. We'll just consider it a "personal best" for the airport. Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR Crash Recording, Scan this QR code to download the app now. Interestingly Gilbert had specified he didn't want to fly with Reichel and Walsh but was apparently told to fly with them anyway for one last time which of course turned out to be the last time he would ever fly. By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein. - paragraph added at 23:02 + amended at 23:09, 30 November (unsigned contributions) by 173.153.180.238 and at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, Engine power indications were virtually unchanged until about 9 seconds Aircraft flying government officials, Helicopters If such an experienced pilot can become the victim of such circumstances, The Spanish language page is similar to the English version. These recordings always give me the heebie-jeebies. accident had to be one of human factors. mined by the investigation board. The report also mentions the altitude callouts required from Reichel might have been made, or partially made, but probably weren't anyway. Pilot error but more directly false ILS signal phenomenon. As an example, there is an immediate inconsistencies about what the tower is told the crew about approach lights and the ICAO report on the condition of those lights.[/quote]. Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.120.246.108 (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], - section created at 22:37, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships This thread is the most recent on Western 2605 on this website, so I thought I would add to it from here so that others might follow a google link and learn something as I have about this crash. Western Airlines Flight 2605 LAX-MEX '79 #10741679. but 18 inches of the right horizontal stabilizer, along with the right inboard and outboard elevators. This accident, incidentally, occured 18 years after the crash of 2605 which investigators also pointed out altitude callouts, and fatigue. We thank you for your support and hope you'll join the largest aviation community on the web. Pictures of great freighter aircraft, Government Aircraft Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. Quote copyedited at 21:28, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230: All of these accidents had some common human factors involvement. That alone would be fascinating if we could obtain it. France (Isre, Auvergne-Rhne-Alpes): Current local time in & Next time change in Saint-Ismier, Time Zone Europe/Paris (UTC+1). on this tragedy: I think there's a CVR on Airdisaster.com. Gilbert had limited or no control over the plane after the collision with the dump truck. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. According to the ICAO circular, max power was applied prior to collision with the truck. We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. For additional details, refer to our Privacy Policy. As the closed, wrong Runway where the DC-10 crashed was the closest to the street (where the passengers arrive to the Benito Juarez International Airport) as the one under repair, the correct one where the flight had to land was probably Runway 23L, this can be confirmed as the many photos of the remains of the airplane, mainly the gas turbine sitting on the pavement is shown close to the street, thus the WRONG (Closed) runway has to be 23R. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, Finally, I have read no analysis of the final statement that one of the 3 man crew says loudly under Gilbert's screams. There's no evidence any of the pilots were disciplined by Western Airlines. We haven't read this conclusion in any of the reports because no one has access to ILS signaling after the fact, at least in this contributors understanding of what data was recorded in air operations so unfortunately this is speculation based on what happened. found him noticeably upset about the trip to Mexico City. 7 years ago (WARNING, DISTURBING) Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR Recording October 31, 1979. - paragraph added at 17:40 + amended at 17:43 and 17:46, 24 November (unsigned contributions) by 173.120.148.69, and 23:37, 30 November (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.180.238, and 01:17 and 03:22, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contributions) by 173.153.15.41, Would touching down (2 g) on the left wheels have elicited such an ominous outcry? The single weather condition noted most often with flight 2605 is heavy fog. We'll just consider it a "personal best" for the airport. Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins Western Airlines immediately lost a number of hubs following deregulation, only to retain Salt Lake City and Los Angeles. (Right?) general avtation will probably have to wait a long time. 68 people died in that crash. Excerpt from Section 1.8.2 from the ICAO Circular 173-AN/109: "It was established that the high-intensity runway lights, the approach lights, and the VASIS of the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) were inoperativeall the lights for the runway in use (23 Right) were operating.". the distant horizon-c-at least for air carrier investigations and our Maybe if the pilot saw obstructions ahead. : 50 YEARS (FO IS UNKNOWN) Flight 2605 remains the deadliest air accident to have occurred in Mexico City. TNVC/NGI Giveaway: 15 winners with over $7000 worth of prizes!! Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. This flight departed late in the evening and who knows how long the crew had been on duty or how much rest they had gotten, apparently not much. While searching for the Western Airlines 2605, Mexico City, 1979 accident I discovered that there is nothing at all on the web. The challenge is being able to discriminate and select what else could be added. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. To be continued.. - paragraph added at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, - section created by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019 (+ heading amended by 173.120.246.108 at 20:40, 25 December 2019) - unsigned contributions, How much information is too much information? The nose gear did not contact how about the poor general aviation pilot, what chance A friend of the Western Airlines DC-I0 captain had 1979 was the planes deadliest year. Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. Those locks prevent an unbalanced aerodynamic condition in which one wing has more lift than the other. Making things even more confusing the recorder was apparently pierced and an erase mechanism was reported to have been briefly actuated. Flying Magazine is not a credible source. No matter how cut throat, abusive, tyrannical or destructive corporations and finance would be to other aspects of flying the public had to be told the Government would never ever compromise on safety. By logging into your account, you agree to our. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft It's pilots loved the plane. I replied to one post below that had the time of day wrong concerning the accident. The event is the third-deadliest aviation accident on Mexican soil after the crashes of two Boeing 727s: the 1969 crash of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 704 and that of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 940 in 1986. . control. (any of them?) He was defending his company by blaming the pilots. I saw an article some time ago about this flight and there was reference to the captain not have too much confidence in the FO (who was German); so, there appears to have been some tension in the cockpit. Other entries are my opinions as well. Because as with the case of this accident, there really wasnt any wrong with the plane. Browse more videos. Western Airlines Flight 2605 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. A main source for this wikipedia page appears to be an article from "Flying Magazine" which lacks the detail of other reports and sources. Cookie Notice The CVR has no indication of strong disagreement. Western Airlines Flight 2605 Crash With CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) Vintage news cast with low volume CVR but informational at beginning Louder CVR with no introduction LAST WORDS SAID BY CAPTAIN: JESUS CHRIST! Walsh (?) Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR. The cause was due to ice formation on the wings. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/09/16/DC-10-fleet-to-undergo-hydraulic-system-changes, https://www.designnews.com/aerospace/designed-disaster-dc-10-airliner-part-4, https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/08/04/engineer-balks-at-changes-in-critical-dc10-systems, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-10, https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205115.pdf Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.153.142.87 (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]. 1 mois de voyages illimits. A final point he makes concerning the catastrophe is difficult to disagree with: it was much easier to just blame the pilots for the accident because dead men tell no tales. American Eagle flight 4184, an ATR 72 flying from IND to ORD, crashed in Northern Indiana on October 31, 1994, which was 25 years ago yesterday. Apparently the official transcript is not quite correct so I'll put my interpretation in the captions. Ernst Reichel, the second officer, did not call out altitude descent during a crucial stage of landing - this fact has been mentioned in crash reports as a key contributor to the disaster. check out the. The CVR is described as sustaining damage in this report, DOT/FAA/PM-86/46 "Aeronautical Decision Making -Cockpit Resource Management": "The voice recorder was recovered from the wreckage; however, the unit had been pierced. Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR DisasterOnline 12.6K subscribers Subscribe 2K 219K views 8 years ago The voice recorder of Western Airlines flight 2605, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, that crashed. Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. for about 400 feet on the main landing gear. (WARNING, DISTURBING) Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR Recording October 31, 1979. AR385. Stay at this 4-star business-friendly hotel in Meylan. Flying Magazine discredits the ALPA report. The plane is surrounded by heavy, dense fog and other than this view into the cockpit there is no visibility. Western Airlines Flight 2605 Crash With CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder). This page was generated at 03:03. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernes_Flight_2605, http://aviation-safety.net/database/?id=19791031-0, http://books.google.com/books?id=8BVpage&q&f=false, http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fod.main/130485/, http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=57025, http://web.archive.org/web/200910220/blackbox.html, http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/-tapes-cd.html, http://www.taxiways.de/DC-10/accident/N903WA.html, If this is your first visit, be sure to Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon, Accidents Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe, Classic Airliners [3] I've compiled some thoughts that I've placed under yours that I've read from reports of the accidents, both FAA and ICAO. Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:186:4500:26FF:C1E0:69E9:B72B:2DC8 (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply], 'Your other left stupid.' The concern was that both the deal and tourism would be negatively impacted if Mexico took most of the blame for the deadly accident. On the other. Privacy Policy. "There is also the possibility that the ILS signal could have been unstable due Report. [9] . Western Airlines Flight 2605 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles to Mexico City. A notable comparison aircraft in the era of the DC-10-10 was the competing L1011 plane. AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. Reichel was described as tired or unfit and he said so at one point in the cockpit. Pilot Gilbert got on the power (100%) before the impact with the truck and after Reichel calmly called to go around after everyone agreed they were at 23L. and our ATC: Can you see the approach light to the left? My dad has mentioned to me several times this accident. 28 On top of all this, the The widely recognized, deeply systemic problems of control by market forces means any article is going to be edited to surrender to those market forces. Props and jets from the good old days, Flight Decks - paragraph amended at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80, He has expressed considerable accusatory disdain for the Mexican authorities and their airport and believes that their share of blame for the disaster has never been properly acknowledged. Is this necessary? You can also try to find a copy of David Grayson '"Terror in the Skies", published by W.H.Allen (London, England, 1989), which has a chapter dealing with that particular accident. The Douglas DC10, even before 1979 suffered multiple hull loses and even for a time, held the accolade of being the aircraft involved in the deadliest air disaster to have occurred at that time. It has been said that the crew was in a strong disagreement, and that the pilot continued the landing in spite of first officer strong disagreement. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos 32 Avenue Du Gresivaudan, Meylan, Isere, 38700. done flyin'." Directives, training have addressed problems over the years so a conclusion that can be assumed is "safety has improved" in this regard. But then, with fog-banks etc giving them problems, visual contact was with 23L but not 23R; they reckoned they had slightly overdone the lateral separation and moved left to correct it, and so lined up with 23L . Audio recording of Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR. As a lay person with a recent fascination with this crash, I'm assuming this was the truck collision by the noises on the CVR. - section created at 20:35, 1 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.9.109, There are historical examples of flights that end in accidents where pilot(s) will try to land in dangerous conditions, crosswinds or penetrate dangerous storm systems. Another piece of frustration. Posts: 6938 . Reichel probably didn't call out altitude, but we do not know this for sure. board. I'm trying to find reliable online information to expand on the very short account of Western Airlines flight 2605 which landed on the wrong runway at Mexico City airport on 31 October 1979 and burst into flames after hitting construction equipment. . Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. The plane just went all the way through to the closed runway. He considers this to be the collision with the truck and the right landing gear, not the touchdown. More importantly pilot errors occured. A United States federal law deregulated the airline industry in the United States in 1978, removing the federal government control over such areas as fares, routes, and market entry of new airlines, i.e the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978.
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